Dana Wait

Alex (00:11):

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Epics podcast where we share epic stories from epic people today. The epic person that I have the pleasure of welcoming to this podcast is Dana. Wait. Dana is a designer out of Seattle working as a researcher for Brooks running company. She's an exceptionally kind and passionate person, and also happens to be my little sister. Welcome Dana. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Dana (00:33):

What a great introduction. I love that it ends with the sister not starts with the sisters.

Alex (00:39):

That's, I mean, mostly they're just, so if anyone's wondering why I'm being slightly rude to you, it's maybe more permissible.

Dana (00:48):

Of course. What do you want to listen to us to know about you? Well, it sounds like today we'll probably talk a lot about design. So if anyone out there is a design nerd listening, I guess I'd like them to know that, um, I'm really into human centered design and, uh, intersectional environmentalism as a catalyst for design. Um, I love learning and I'm excited to be here, I guess that's pretty much all.

Alex (01:15):

Well, we're excited to have you so first, can you just kind of tell us the story of why you wanted to get into the design in the first place?

Dana (01:23):

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know how it happened. I think in high school I took a lot of art classes and somehow got it in my mind that I was going to go to art school and I just never looked back from then. I, I looked at one art school, the Savannah college of art and design. I applied early and I didn't apply to any other schools and I got in and I went and I, uh, I don't regret it at all. I think it was like the best experience I could've had. I really cherished that time and I studied interior design there. I originally thought I wanted to do graphic design, but I immediately realized I wanted to switch interior before I even started graphic design curriculum. So yeah, that's where I kind of started.

Alex (02:15):

What drew you to the interior design side of it immediately?

Dana (02:19):

Well, as like a kid and just growing up, I think we were really lucky. Our parents were kind of, um, willing to sacrifice their homes, home, like rooms and stuff to let me experiment on stuff. Like I always was moving my own furniture around and rearranging and collaging the walls and you know, like that's the kind of thing I always wanted to spend my money on was stuff for my room and that kind of thing. Um, and then slowly, you know, mom, let me paint her bathroom or like our living room or our kitchen. And, um, I think that was like a good starting point for me. Like realizing I can influence like the space around me and I feel different when I do. And I think she kind of reminded me that when I got to art school, cause I said, oh, I want to be a graphic designer and do like CD covers and posters and food packaging. And she was like, well, yeah, but you know, you've always been doing this thing and you seem to really like it. Um, and then once I saw the curriculum, like in, in this little book they gave at the beginning, I was like, oh yeah, this does seem like something I would really like because it's for people, you know, it can change their moods, it can change, um, how productive they are. It can change, you know, their behavior and the whole human psychology behind interior design, I think is what was so fascinating to me

Alex (03:43):

As, as someone who obviously isn't in design myself. I don't think of, I think a lot of us think of design as things we look at. Um, and not things that influence people or affect people in any sort of way. Um, you said that when you started to like use the space to, to influence, you know, to influence the space around you, it made you feel like kind of different. Like what, what was that feeling?

Dana (04:10):

Well, I think it depends on what space it was, but like in my room, I feel like when I affected my space, it made me more creative. Like I would, um, experiment in there. It was like a safe place to try things. And I don't know if you remember in high school, but my had a lime green room and I had a whole wall that was collaged with just like random things. Like I had an Elmo head on there at one point, which is just kind of creepy. Yeah. All sorts of weird stuff like movies, stubs, and like all that. And I think it, it made me feel connected. Jean, all my friends, my family, my memories, I think I'm always like trying to have my space reflect my personality, but equally like ignite memories. That's something I've noticed recently, even in my space now, like I leave things out that I know will bring me joy or help me remember something from the past. So yeah, I think creativity is, is like the first thing that comes to mind, especially in like my apartment now and my, and my, um, my room back then my dorm room. Same thing.

Alex (05:27):

Yeah, I do. Um, I do feel like after we both moved out, your room was touched after mine. Um, which, because it was obviously more, uh, designed. Um, so they, they didn't want to change it as much. Um, that may be entirely untrue, but

Dana (05:46):

I remember it very differently. So that is so interesting. I remember coming back and it just being my bedspread. I was like, I think they warned us that we weren't going have our rooms anymore though. They were like, you're not going to live here anymore. So this is our space. Yeah.

Alex (06:05):

That is definitely very true. So then you, you go to Savannah college of art and design. I've never actually said that full name. I always just called it Scott, because that was just easier. Once you said that to me, um, you know, you, so you left Colorado, went to Georgia for school and then immediately decided you wanted to go to Seattle to pursue your design career. Uh, where, where did your design career start then? After school?

Dana (06:31):

It's kind of funny. I don't know if I've ever told you this Alex, but I started panicking when I graduated because traditionally interior designers work at like an architecture firm and the culture is, is kind of a strict culture where hierarchal higher RP Cole, tiered structure, where you kind of go from the bottom to the top. And the bottom is like drawing bathrooms for years and like boring stuff, not actually designing or making anything essentially working on like building codes and like stuff that I wasn't very good at in the first place. Um, so I like panics, cause I, I didn't even want to interview at architecture firms. I knew it wasn't a good fit. And I kind of got lucky because a SCAD alumni who worked in Seattle who was working at kind of like a non-traditional place as an architect. And he, it was an experiential marketing firm.

Dana (07:32):

So they were designing like temporary environments, like popups and like events and like that kind of thing. And I was like, oh, okay. Like it's a team of two me and this guy who also went to SCAD, his wife also went to SCAD, was an interior designer. So like, I felt like, oh, this is like, feel safe. And like, they kind of know how I think and they've been through the program and it was fantastic. I got lucky. I think that I just fell into that weird worlds, um, because he gave me so much freedom from the beginning to just like design things and make them, and I got to travel and see them be made. And I was like, wow, like I, I thought of that. And I, and now it's here, but I will say it didn't, it wasn't all roses because at a certain point, not very long, even after like a year, I was like, oh, this doesn't feel right either.

Dana (08:24):

I'm literally making trash. I get to see it for a day. And then I get to see it literally in the dumpster the next day. And that just didn't really sit well with me and my values. And I think in school I had more of a, I thought for sure, I would be doing something around sustainability and like ethical design. And then the reality was I just needed a job. I didn't, I didn't get a job after a year after graduation, about nine months, like many of us do it's to get a job out of school. And, um, it wasn't until I was working full time, like doing it, that I was like, oh yeah, actually this is kind of off course for me. I think

Alex (09:08):

So immediately you get put in a situation where you're not designing bathrooms, you actually are designing these experiences. Um, which I remember you explaining to me for the first time and I never quite understood it. Um, but exactly, you know, in a sense this chance to design what drew you to interior design in the first place, which was the ability to influence people through, through the design. But I do, I do remember, you know, you touching on the idea of sustainability and, you know, the ethical, ethical design piece. I, I really want to talk more about what ethical design is and what that really means to you through that process.

Dana (09:48):

Yeah. It's been a real journey and 2020 I think has, has been, um, insightful for me specifically. Um, you know, I carried on working at design agencies, um, making all sorts of stuff that wasn't super fulfilling. And then this July I was laid off and I felt this instant sense of relief, like, okay. Cause I wouldn't have made that choice. I don't think on my own, I had really great friends. My whole community was at my work and I, I really enjoyed my work because of the people, but I always knew like it wasn't fulfilling. Like my, my purpose wasn't fulfilled. I was learning a lot of great skills. I think that's why I stuck around as long as I did five years doing that. But at a certain point you need the rug pulled out from under you to realize like, is this really, is this really sitting well?

Dana (10:43):

Like I've learned a lot now what, and I stumbled across this fellowship program called moving worlds Institute and it's designed for any professional, any background, which is why I really liked it, who is interested in how they could apply their talents to the social sector. And that's something I've always been curious about, but wasn't educated in. So it was kind of perfect. I started this program in the fall. I'm still in it now. And that's teaching me a lot about ethical design, but also just in general, how people can pivot their careers to feel more purposeful. And I don't think for everybody that means working for a non-profit or working for an NGO or a B Corp or whatever, um, which kind of surprised me, I thought for sure, this thing would make me feel like I need to like get my job in a nonprofit and then I'll feel fulfilled. But I think I'm learning that there's a lot of layers to it. I don't think that even answered your question. That's no,

Alex (11:48):

That's fantastic. You know, I'm obviously like kind of touched by the idea of finding your purpose in what you're wanting to do. And I do want to talk about how you envision design being able to change the world. And what, in what ways when you had that rug pulled out from under you, what did you stop and think was the purpose of your career in design in terms of using design to change the world?

Dana (12:18):

Yeah. I mean, it's still a journey I'm on. I think it's going to be a lifelong journey, which is something I'm trying to cope with because I'm someone who plans out every next step I planned when I was 18, that I was going to go to college in a certain place and graduate and moved to Seattle. And I did all that, but now I'm at the point where I need to like, let go a little bit. And I think this program has taught me a lot about that. But as far as like my purpose, I think I had the luxury of having all summer off, you know, the government keeping me afloat. And I kind of looked back at all the experiences and opportunities I had in my design career and like zoned in on those moments that I felt the best. And the one that really came friend of mine was, um, a collaboration I did with ideo.org, which when I was in school was like my dream company to work for.

Dana (13:12):

It's a lot of, um, designers dreams, um, because they are a philanthropic design firms. So they do design all in service of, um, helping the greater good and all that. Um, so I got to work with them when I was working at a design agency, uh, on a project for a mental health facility for youth. And like the project itself was fulfilling, but it was also the process that they had, which is like this human centered design process, which is a buzz word now, but they kind of coined that term way, way back. And it's all about, uh, focusing design on like the people who you're creating for which sounds really obvious, but it's like a really thorough kind of meticulous process that they created. And that process I fell in love with. Um, and I kind of dug deeper into that since I had the time and realized that's really research, like that's like interviewing people and hosting creative sessions, like unlocking their insights when they don't even know that they're releasing that like helping people be vulnerable and, um, figuring out what people really need and like how you can help make that happen through design.

Dana (14:34):

So I pivoted to design research, I guess you would call it. I still think it's designed. It's just that first half of the design process where you're like investigating and talking to the people on the ground and uplifting their voices, bringing them into the process so that the result is something that's actually meaningful to them. And they were part of it versus being a white savior, bringing them a solution. That's not even, it's a band-aid or it's, you know, the wrong solution or what have you, um, just a totally different, more thoughtful approach.

Alex (15:10):

I know you call it human centered design for those of us who don't know that that's the buzz word. I think that really speaks to, I feel like what your goal is, your design process in general is really inserting that human element into design. And I think maybe for some of us outsiders, we would see design as a much more calculated process. Kind of like the process of deciding to go to art school in Savannah and then going to Seattle and doing all those things end up super planned out way. But then there's the human element that you're inserting with this human centered that I assume makes it kind of messier, right? Because it's harder to predict,

Dana (15:48):

Oh yeah, impossible. You have to let it all go because it's not about you. And I think that's a distinction. I mean, I knew that even in my program at school, like they, they taught human centered design as a concept. So I was introduced to it when I was 18 and it's just taken me this long to realize that can be my whole job. Like that first half of the design process can be everything I do because design is like a really broad thing. It could be product design could be industrial design. It could be graphic design, web design app. Does that, you know, like all this, all this stuff, but it's like a creative output at the end of the day. And I've just learned after working for a while that it's not the output that I really care about at all. It's like the process of like making and like learning.

Dana (16:38):

That's really fun for me. And that's why I thought I always wanted to be a teacher because you just get to like, listen and learn and try things out and prototype and see what sticks and get to be in the room where all the creative ideas are happening, which I still think I might try at some point, but I feel like I'm in that environment now where like, when I am interviewing someone or working on a co-creation session or whatever, brainstorming with a collective group of people who are non-designers, I'm feeling totally energized. Like, I feel like the solutions are more creative and that I'm contributing something meaningful, not just like a vacuum cleaner design or whatever it is. I'm not making anything tangible, but I feel like I'm Fritz. I don't know if that makes sense.

Alex (17:28):

Yeah. It's the, it's the first step in the process to making something tangible. It's just in this way that I don't think we, we think of all the time, uh, when it comes to design, uh, obviously a lot of us don't think of the design process that often because we don't understand it. And for those of us who don't do this on an everyday basis, it's kind of a foreign concept to the process that goes involved. We typically think of it as this very structured process. Like it's already all kind of figured out, and that's clearly not the case there's, especially when you focus on the human element of it. Um, which view is creating these, these amazing moments. And these are the most innovative design. It comes from these human ideas that don't come from any surface.

Dana (18:12):

Yeah. And, you know, a recent revelation for me, as well as I've been going through my program is, um, de-centering whiteness and design. I watched a panel, uh, last week that kind of rocked my world because the whole design curriculum is based on a Canon of centric ideology. So everything I learned in school centered around European ideology basically, and, you know, what's scary about that is a lot of people are getting forced fed that same information, right. And then they become designers, which is like a highly influential position because you're creating things for society, right. You're, you're forming the future of society through the things that you're building. And so you're building things through this really tiny lens, this one perspective, which is like, it's leaving everyone out, everyone else. So, yeah, I think for me, uh, along this journey of like, what is ethical design is challenging that cannon throwing it out and, and questioning the education system in general. Like how can we expand upon the typical design process or the typical design approach, even this human centered thing. How do people in Scandinavia, you know, go about design? How do people in Africa go back about design native American people? Like what, what, you know, there's so many different ways of approaching design and I'd feel I'm at the point where I'd like to expand beyond this Eurocentric thing that is just like, almost like a virus across our industry because of our education system. Like what the foundation of what has been built on.

Alex (20:05):

If we think about this white centeredness in design, you know, being kind of this plague, that's infected the educational system. And then obviously brought up all of these designers who have now influenced society through this Eurocentric ideology. What do you feel like is the first step, or maybe the first few steps that designers specifically you need to take to pivot away from white centerdness and zoom out that lens?

Dana (20:36):

I think it's a lot of, um, individual work. Um, we live in a time where we can watch events a different event every single day for free. I have, you know, I think this week that's about indigenous research methods. People should be seeking out different ways of thinking and different ways of approaching their specific trade, whatever it is that you do. I think there there's so much out there to learn that we all have access to. And secondly, you know, if you're in a position of power, like I am where I can hire people on my team, you know, you need to, you need to be aware of the makeup of your team. Like how many perspectives do you really have? Um, I think in, in my dream world, you know, we would have people who are not, not one the same, we'd have neurodiverse people on our team or, you know, they would be fantastic contribution to a creative environment.

Dana (21:32):

We would have social workers on our team. We would have educators on our team. We'd have scientists on our team. We wouldn't, I mean, the whole thing with design, I think is that we've gotten so snobby about who is a designer. And I just don't buy into that. I think everyone is, I think you are. I think your son is, I think Christina, I think everybody is a designer because we're, you know, making things all the time and making decisions all the time. That's all design is making one decision after another. So I think being really mindful of who you're including in the conversation is like the biggest thing that we can do.

Alex (22:13):

I think you touched on something that is really universal. The idea that whether it's in design or any sort of field, I think a good first step is always to, to seek out different ways of thinking. And I think a lot of us struggle with that idea because we think that means that we have to force ourselves to think differently. But what I believe in my purse through my personal experience is it's not about training yourself to think differently right away. There are people that exist that already think differently. It's not like, you know, the white people in the room just have to think differently. W w no, we just need to, we need to hear from people who think differently, is there an example that comes to earn experience that comes to mind for you of it's kind of an eye opening moment for you thinking about someone's perspective as you've been going through this process? Has there been any, any moment or person that's really made you stop and think through that, that part of that process?

Dana (23:12):

Oh yeah. All the time. Again, this fellowship is like serving me that content on the weekly. So like two weeks ago, I, I was on a virtual event that had a panel of black women who are all researchers. So in the same field as me talking about their experience, conducting research. So it's like just hearing how they fundamentally have to think about different things differently than I do. Like when they go into an interview, they have to be prepared if someone's like, you know, starts going off about racist stuff. And they brought up just like, how can colleagues be supportive and prepared as a team to navigate that? Um, in interviews specifically, people get really vulnerable and random stuff can pop up. So as a team, like as facilitators, how can we protect each other and make space for, for it to be a supportive environment? Like has the emergency signal like, okay, let's shut this interview down. Things are getting out of hand or like even making space for leaving the room, whatever, whatever it might be. But they talked a lot about like how specifically white colleagues in the research fields could support people of color who are conducting research. Um, so that was stuff I had not even considered and is directly related to what I do every single day.

Alex (24:39):

I want to take a, just a moment, zoom out of design for just a second and then we'll do it right back in. But I know that you're really passionate about things like inclusivity, um, and education, and, you know, you know, changing the way that we educate everybody. Can you talk about the most dire needs that we have in our world that, that we need to change and go into? How, how do you see design, um, helping to facilitate that change?

Dana (25:08):

Ooh, that's an existential question. I don't have it figured out yet. So, um, I'll try to answer that. As far as like things I feel passionate about us as a society world planet focusing on, I really think it's intersectional for me. I, of course, am. I'm really passionate about the environment and concerned about where we're going, but I'm equally concerned about our society, the human beings on it, how we treat each other. So I think before this summer, I would have told you I was a hundred percent into sustainability. Like that would be the number one thing, but I really think, and maybe this is a cheating answer, but I think it's intersectional, intersectional, environmental ism. Like we need to be thinking about what are solutions that are helping our planet that equally helping and serving the communities that are impacted the most. Um, because there are some trends, undeniable links between those two things, the places that are struggling the most environmentally are also the places where we're mistreating people the most. So I think it's hard to have a conversation about either one without talking about both. And so I would love to see like the curriculum change to be around both at once, because I, I guess that's just where I'm at right now. I feel like that they are kind of go hand in.

Alex (26:44):

Yeah, absolutely. So you, you said ensure I get this right. Intersectional environmentalism. That's a term I've never heard before and probably spelled wrong. So when I wrote it down, explain to me a little bit more about what, what that is.

Dana (26:58):

Yeah. So I never knew that term until the summer. There was a, uh, I don't even know how I found it an Instagram account. I'm such a millennial that, um, that was called intersectional environmentalist. And that's how I heard about the term. It's just, it's, it's kind of what I was just saying, but like thinking and approaching solutions that are equally serving people in the planet.

Alex (27:27):

So paint a picture for, for some of us with the less advanced design brain. What's an example of where you've seen that happen, where you, where you see design effecting those parts equally.

Dana (27:40):

I don't know if I have an example. Like I think I'm sure there are out there, but I think that's kind of the flaw right now is like, people are either focused on one or the other, like you'll see brands that are focused on sustainability and you'll see brands that are focused on helping people out of poverty or whatever, you know, whatever it is that serving people. There is a studio that I really admire, uh, in Copenhagen called space 10. And they do a lot of really amazing mindful work. But I don't, I can't think of like a case study of theirs, even that I've seen recently that maybe covers both. I feel like they it's usually one or the other.

Alex (28:24):

Yeah. Well, it makes sense. I mean, it's easier to focus on one thing at a time. Right. But I really, you know, I'm really moved by the idea of one thing affecting the other. Cause I think that's absolutely true and it seems like it definitely is a systemic problem for designers and kind of collectively to tackle, like it's not going to happen just from one design firm or one case study. And it really is going to take a large scale kind of shift in culture.

Dana (28:54):

Yeah. I think it is just like asking different questions and the design process and including different people. I think the biggest example is like, if you look at a map at where all of our landfills are where we're dumping our waste, our toxic trash, and looking at the community demographics of those areas, it's like exactly what you would expect. And I just don't, I don't believe that that's a coincidence anymore. I'm like someone made that conscious decision and it was someone in power and it was someone who was white, who doesn't prioritize global warming or maybe even believe in it. So, yeah, I think there's just so many examples. I've, I've seen lately in my fellowship where it's like, yeah, these are, these are conscious behaviors and, um, they are linked and it's, it's hard because these movements have been siloed, right? Like there's environmentalists and then there's activists like, uh, social activists, but getting the conversation to intersect and be about both, I think is really difficult because people want to choose one over the other. A lot of times they think one's more important than the other, but I don't know. I feel like they're, they're both equally important, both very important, uh, to the future of our planet and our society.

Alex (30:23):

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting concept of starting to, I mean, if we even take a step back from, you know, uniting all these movements together, we first need to recognize that they have siloed. And I think we don't give a lot of attention to not that that one is better or worse of a cause than another, but that they do affect each other. And to, and to kind of ignore that almost sells each one short. Right.

Dana (30:52):

And there's, you know, a history that we bring with us. Right. So like there's, there's parts of the environmental movement that maybe didn't serve people, maybe didn't serve anyone that is in another group. Right. So I don't know. I think people can be hesitant or embarrassed or ashamed of the history or equally on the other side, like be skeptical of a group for saying that they mean one thing and doing another, so yeah. It's going to be a hard thing to do to overcome, but, um, I have faith in the next generation, uh, your boys and, uh, is it gen Z? Is that the one? Yeah.

Alex (31:38):

As a typical millennial, I stopped paying attention to what, which ones come after it.

Dana (31:42):

I think it's the, I think we're X weight now we're wide. And then there's a, yeah, that makes sense. What's going to be after Z though. They're going to have to rethink it. Right. Is it AA, right? Like, like

Alex (31:59):

If you keep going to the right on an Excel spreadsheet, AA,

Dana (32:06):

I'm sure they already have a name for them. And I just don't know it.

Alex (32:09):

That's what I want to, I wanted to be in that room. I want to be decides things like that.

Dana (32:13):

Yeah. Who is deciding that if people are the same people who are designing the Crayola cran names, I'm less interested in that.

Alex (32:23):

I always believed in like how many of the main cause of it like six.

Dana (32:29):

Yeah. I mean, there's three primary colors that make all the other colors. So essentially there's only three colors and black and white

Alex (32:38):

Set for my boys that has 50 Krantz, 50 markers in it with different colors. So

Dana (32:43):

That's important. They need all of those colors. Right.

Alex (32:47):

Well, I really appreciate you sharing your insights with us here on the podcast. And I just want to end with asking you, like, what do you feel like through your journey through design? Obviously you started in one place and really journey to this point of the intersectional design intervene, intersectional environmentalism. Sorry. I wrote it down. It's going to bruise all the time, but what do you feel like has been most helpful on your journey that you then have started to apply not only from design, but to the rest of your life in terms of doing your little bit to change the world in every tiny little way?

Dana (33:25):

Yeah. I think I found, um, through this fellowship because it's like focusing the first half on who you are, like your values and, um, your strengths and weaknesses. I think I've learned that I'm a learner and I think that's actually something that's really valuable people who get energized from like learning or the process of learning or expanding their perspective or hearing a contrary perspective. I think that's a valuable asset to have. And I think it's kind of, what's gotten me to this point of like questioning everything and honestly, into research. I feel like I'm at home now because that's, my full-time job is asking questions and learning. I think for me as that, as long as I'm pursuing like my inner learner and questioning the status quo and questioning my own behavior and looking outside myself and my whiteness, I feel like I'll be able to like, get where I want to be. Hopefully, well, hopefully we all have a shot of doing that. Um,

Alex (34:36):

I, I definitely am very inspired by your story. And I really hope that, that we can all learn from, from your journey as well, that we can start by thinking differently. And I th I think it's really wise to start questioning everything and, you know, really asking those questions and boiling it down to what did we learn and what can we, what, what can we learn now? Um, that's different and authentic and real and ethical and positive. And so I really appreciate you, uh, spending the time with me today. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you so much for joining me.

Speaker 1 (35:38):

[inaudible].